Dr. Megan Ma On The Future of AI in Legal

Join Dr. Megan Ma in Eudia's blog as she explores the future of AI in legal practice, discussing its transformative potential for the industry.

Dr. Ma shares insights into how generative AI is transforming the legal sector, from automating contract drafting to developing AI-powered legal personas that simulate partner-level expertise. She highlights the growing fascination with legal technology, driven by AI's ability to process vast amounts of text and capture the nuanced behaviors of legal professionals.They also dive into the impact of AI on legal education and training. Dr. Ma discusses how law firms are rethinking mentorship in an era where AI can handle much of the routine work traditionally assigned to junior associates. She introduces groundbreaking tools like negotiation simulators that allow lawyers to refine their skills by engaging with AI-driven legal agents.Omar and Dr. Ma further discuss the challenges of AI adoption in law, including concerns over hallucinations, accuracy, and trust. They examine the shift from viewing AI as a back-office tool to a fully integrated system that enhances legal decision-making. They explore the changing role of Chief Legal Officers, who are increasingly taking the lead in AI-driven transformation. As the discussion unfolds, Dr. Ma offers a bold vision for the next decade of legal tech, where AI seamlessly integrates into everyday legal practice, reshaping workflows, client interactions, and even the very definition of what it means to be a lawyer.

00:00:00:02 - 00:00:23:05

Omar Haroun

Welcome to the Augmented Intelligence Podcast. I'm your host Omar, here in the co-founder and CEO of Eudia. I'm really, really excited today to welcome Doctor Megan Ma from Stanford. Megan is a pioneer in the legal technology space and is doing really cutting edge research on AI agents, augmented intelligence. A lot of things we're going to get into today.

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00:00:23:05 - 00:00:43:10

Omar Haroun

And just as a very deep thinker on how lawyers actually kind of operate. Having had a lot of experience now with a PhD in law and and coming at it from a very academic angle, but still being very close to some of the realities of, the work that Codex and Stanford is doing. And so, yeah, I'm really excited to welcome Megan.

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00:00:43:12 - 00:01:04:23

Omar Haroun

Megan, welcome to the show. I mean, yeah, of course, I, would love to start with with kind of what we were just joking about because both of us had makeup being applied to us. We're in this fancy studio, and it suddenly feels a little bit like, we're we're people that other people actually want to listen to.

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00:01:05:00 - 00:01:19:06

Omar Haroun

Which is not the case for the last, you know, kind of a decade, I would say. So we would love to hear why you think there's been this sort of sudden explosion of these many people who are suddenly interested in, in legal tech for the first time.

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00:01:19:08 - 00:01:45:17

Dr. Megan Ma

Yeah, that's a great question. And I, I always think that, you know, when I started, and even in the days of my PhD, my supervisor XR was the only one that believed in me that thought there was any value in the work that I was doing. I think I had pitched to our committee so many times, like, why there is going to be automation in the legal industry and why there's going to be this role that technology is going to play.

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00:01:45:18 - 00:02:12:10

Dr. Megan Ma

Instead they were like, well, you know, nothing you're saying is about the law. And so I think today, like, they actually showcase that part of the work that the institution is doing is technology related. But I think kind of what makes people fascinated about the legal domain all of a sudden is with generative AI. They felt like, oh, you know, what exactly do lawyers really do?

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00:02:12:11 - 00:02:49:06

Dr. Megan Ma

There's kind of this opacity in this smoke and mirrors, what? The whole profession seems to be tethered around language. And what makes kind of language models operate? Well, you know, if you process amounts of text, like, maybe if I generate things and can speak in legalese, that's all that there is. And so I hear, like a lot of young founders today being like, oh, well, there's all these inefficiencies in the legal system not knowing anything about kind of like the legal background, but simply that if you just throw it all into a model, then they're going to be able to mimic it in perfection.

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00:02:49:08 - 00:03:22:22

Dr. Megan Ma

And I think like slowly, you'll see that all of the questions around, why this technology is actually not only fitting, but at times kind of, sufficiently nuanced for our profession actually is not founded in purely the data itself. It's actually understanding the lawyers and how they behave. And for the first time, we have a technology that's capable of capturing behavior as opposed to purely about the text alone.

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00:03:23:00 - 00:03:53:11

Dr. Megan Ma

We have like, founders that are like 18, 19 that come to our existence and they have no legal background, but they're super excited about the legal domain, simply because they can speak in legalese. And it's kind of funny because when I started teaching, I taught a class called, You know, How to Speak the Law and the kind of question that a lot of students came back to me was, oh, I'm only taking this class because I feel like I want to integrate legalese into my day to day.

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00:03:53:17 - 00:04:13:17

Dr. Megan Ma

And I was like, what does that even mean? They're like, well, it makes me sound unapproachable. And I thought that that was kind of like, a strange point to come across. And I found that I think like that continues, with a lot of engineers where they're just thinking that we're speaking almost like a different dialect.

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00:04:13:19 - 00:04:32:12

Dr. Megan Ma

And in many ways it is. But, once they actually get into selling the technology or thinking about building in the profession, they realize that so much of it is actually about the characters of these lawyers. And how they actually present the knowledge to the world.

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00:04:32:14 - 00:04:45:23

Omar Haroun

Fascinating. And and speaking of that, I think some of the research that you've done more recently with law firms where you've actually gone almost on the individual partner level. I think it'd be fascinating for people to hear about that.

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00:04:46:01 - 00:05:06:21

Dr. Megan Ma

Yeah. So I think one thing we have been exploring a lot on is this notion of generative agents. There's been this idea that we're kind of classifying as legal personas, and it's this idea that in the law firm, it's not just about the law firm level of language or the law firms precedent. It's about at the partner level.

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00:05:06:21 - 00:05:28:10

Dr. Megan Ma

Right. So you enter into a law firm and you're kind of green in the field and you're not sure what to do. It's very rare that you immediately start tackling like from just generic templates. Instead, you're kind of following the path of a specific partner. And when you go into these one on ones with partners, partners will kind of get back to you and say like, no, you've done it all wrong.

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00:05:28:11 - 00:05:55:00

Dr. Megan Ma

They're partners that say, I don't like to use the word vary or whatever. And over time you kind of pick up the habits of the partner. And that's what we started to kind of touch upon, is in a world where a lot of this technology is going to take away the core component, that we used time and time again to teach our young lawyers, which is learning by doing, telling them to do thousands of contracts.

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00:05:55:00 - 00:06:15:00

Dr. Megan Ma

And then at some point it will unlock, than being a senior lawyer if all of that goes away, because our tools are now available to generate contracts or do first drafts or whatnot. What are you using to teach the lawyer? And you can't just be teaching at a generic level. What you're what you have to teach is an apprenticeship model.

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00:06:15:02 - 00:06:39:10

Dr. Megan Ma

And so a lot of the tools that we started building is how do you download the brains of the partners, capture their war stories, and actually simulate those experiences into the actual legal workflows that they do? So we built, for example, a negotiation simulator where you can actually simulate what it's like to negotiate an M&A deal. You can play on different modules, you can play on different modes.

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00:06:39:10 - 00:07:02:19

Dr. Megan Ma

And what we found was really fascinating is that, partners started to get interested in it because they, they were actually negotiating with themselves and gaming their own strategies. For a junior, they started to see different like levels of aggression. So they saw, for example, if you play on Mistral model, they noticed that they almost always walk away from the deal.

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00:07:02:19 - 00:07:22:20

Dr. Megan Ma

It could be related to the French training data or the kind of French character of it. But, you know, all of these things they started to pick up are what people broadly defined as soft skills, but actually are really the value or relative value differences. That's beyond, again, the four corners of the contract or four corners of any legal tax.

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00:07:22:22 - 00:07:43:07

Omar Haroun

Fascinating. And so I mean just just to kind of pick up on the evolution of the industry, one change is there's now a lot of people, engineers in particular who see this is a lot of tax. It's a great candidate to use language models. And I get to speak any language. What are some other trends that you've seen in the legal technology industry?

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00:07:43:09 - 00:08:10:09

Dr. Megan Ma

Yeah, I think in the past we have seen like legal focused on expert systems, that there was a huge kind of motivation for absolute precision and that you had go through a number of dependency trees. Of course, the struggle that they worked with was, scalability. You can only do very, very niche areas. The kind of other spectrum was a movement towards standardization.

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00:08:10:14 - 00:08:34:00

Dr. Megan Ma

They were like, oh, we can just build contract playbooks, for example. And but that required kind of something that was to me much harder, which is being able to articulate some of that implicit knowledge that you as a senior expert, can't quite define clearly. And so how do you kind of describe top down a process that you almost are automating in your mind?

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00:08:34:02 - 00:08:55:00

Dr. Megan Ma

I think this current era and why it's fascinating is that it picks up on that implicit knowledge very quickly. And so you don't need a ton of examples, in say, like older types of NLP and using NLP in legal tech. There were a lot of issues with kind of consistency of extraction, and information retrieval.

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00:08:55:02 - 00:09:21:19

Dr. Megan Ma

And obviously a lot of the legal tech incumbents, they had the benefit of being able to own a lot of this data now, like you don't need troves and troves of this data. It already picks up on a lot of nuance that you wouldn't expect. So I think this shift is actually what's most substantive about this current era of, legal tech and probably why people view this as a renaissance.

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00:09:21:21 - 00:09:41:20

Omar Haroun

Absolutely. And I guess building off of that and connecting some of the dots, because you mentioned the profile of certain founders, and you also mentioned how I think like I remember when ChatGPT first came out, there was a prediction that this is just going to really benefit incumbents because they ultimately have so much data. You're a little bit calling that into question.

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00:09:42:01 - 00:09:57:23

Omar Haroun

So can you talk a bit about what are the attributes of in your mind, having seen, you know, hundreds of startups now and mature companies? What are the attributes of the companies that you believe have what it takes to win in this, this, this next era?

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00:09:58:01 - 00:10:31:11

Dr. Megan Ma

Yeah, I think what's really important is actually it's very relational, this industry. Lawyers are incredible risk hedgers. They love to mitigate risks. And a lot of how they have viewed their own business is through relationships and trust and reputation. And I think that translates in the way that they view vendors as well. I think going back to kind of this evolution, legal tech historically, you know, no one knew about us sort of joke was that it was back office.

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00:10:31:12 - 00:10:56:17

Dr. Megan Ma

You know, people just lawyers felt like they needed to use this technology. They were force fed into it. And then they kind of contoured themselves so that they could work with the technology. But for the first time, we're kind of turning that question around and we're saying, what do you need to make your practice better? And, you know, a lot of lawyers are incredibly practice focused.

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00:10:56:18 - 00:11:33:07

Dr. Megan Ma

They're building their own individual businesses. And so in this case, a lot of what I see is a successful founder is someone who understands this relational concept. Right. Someone who has a history of understanding that lawyers really care, that you care about their practice. And if you are asking the right questions about what they absolutely hate doing, or what are these kind of little nuances that if you were just able to unlock it, or am I able to kind of tap into my second brain or something like that?

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00:11:33:09 - 00:11:54:20

Dr. Megan Ma

That's what really, you know, resonates with them. And, you know, I think, for example, your own history of selling in the legal industry, but also being able to talk with lawyers and understanding almost it's almost like, you know, a therapist, right? Like lawyers feel like they want to be heard. And I think that's kind of what's important about this particular industry.

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00:11:54:23 - 00:11:55:20

Dr. Megan Ma

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00:11:55:22 - 00:12:29:09

Omar Haroun

Yeah. And I think I mean in my case a lot of it has been pleasant surprise that chief legal officers are really kind of stepping up and in a way that I'd never seen before, like in the last year, are actually, beginning to kind of work with us directly. And I think prior to that, similar to maybe the rest of the world not paying attention to what was going on, there was a little bit of, hey, I should be delegating this to my legal operations person or my discovery person or whomever.

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00:12:29:11 - 00:12:40:14

Omar Haroun

It does feel different, and I think there's probably a variety of explanations. I'd love to hear kind of what you think is the evolution of the chief legal officer or why, why they're suddenly getting more involved.

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00:12:40:16 - 00:13:12:20

Dr. Megan Ma

Yeah, I think there's an interesting, like, magic that's happened with, people thinking that legal or, just in general even compliance is some sort of, you know, bottleneck. And they're like, oh, God, I have to send this over to legal. And there's suddenly, you know, with technology, they became almost like a positive. All of a sudden it's like, yes, I should send it to legal because I can figure out whether or not this is contributing to the overall strategy of the company.

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00:13:13:01 - 00:13:46:17

Dr. Megan Ma

It wasn't just about like, it being a burden. And I think, like, you know, you also see us somewhat pivot in the chief legal officers position in terms of how they see risk. Right. If there is more transparency in how the transactions are being done, then naturally they are not kind of doing a guessing game. We're going off of there like, you know, scars, tissue to tell, and saying like, okay, through running things through this technology, I have some sort of kind of quantitative foundation and bottom line.

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00:13:46:17 - 00:14:12:07

Dr. Megan Ma

And now going forward, I can almost gamify how I can make sure that the company is lifted up all together. And so I think, like, it's very interesting to kind of focus on close because in the past, you know, again, like they've found every way to kind of avoid being seen as a cost center. They're the ones that have to make the decisions of when to outsource work to like outside counsel.

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00:14:12:09 - 00:14:44:10

Dr. Megan Ma

And now, like, there's just so much more transparency. They know where they can offer their relative value. And then exactly, you know, on the other end, they can almost view in advance, what they should be expecting from outside counsel. And, you know, a lot of what people are talking about in this shift of like, law firm business models and like time and billing is chief legal officers, in a way, are driving that change and saying, like, law firms need to be much more transparent about how much they are charging us per hour.

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00:14:44:13 - 00:14:49:18

Dr. Megan Ma

And they have the power now because of these technologies that are available.

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00:14:49:20 - 00:15:25:10

Omar Haroun

I'm curious. I remember there's a little bit of some, some studies went viral around the hallucinations related to, to, I'm sure, you know, kind of groups, groups that you're intimately familiar with. We just talk a little bit about this because, I, one of these variances that we had, especially in the beginning of the sudden interest, was it was like people got a little bit too excited and suddenly they were drunk on AI and they actually forgot that there's also, a lot of risk.

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00:15:25:10 - 00:15:36:19

Omar Haroun

And I'm just curious how you've seen kind of the evolution of, I mean, our hallucinations are real problem. How real of a problem is there a solution? Kind of. What are your current thoughts on that?

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00:15:36:21 - 00:16:02:19

Dr. Megan Ma

Yeah, I think hallucinations. And like every time I see this, I wonder if it's a hot take, but I think it's a red herring, truthfully. It's one of those things where the technology, if you understand the sort of historical background, it's not meant to give you a 100% accuracy. So if you're demanding that the technology has to be 100% accurate, has to be 100% reproducible, you're looking at the wrong thing simply.

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00:16:02:21 - 00:16:24:06

Dr. Megan Ma

But on the other hand, if your understanding of kind of how this technology is built, then you will choose your use cases much more wisely. And then hallucination is secondary. And I think in part it's going to eventually, over time, be a cost that you have to account for. And so it's really about moving into an era of what I call division of machine labor.

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00:16:24:07 - 00:16:44:00

Dr. Megan Ma

I think a lot of what people view generative AI. And because, you know, there's this mystique and kind of excitement and we it is an incredibly powerful technology that a lot of people make the mistake of doing away with every other technology that exists. Right? It's like, let's get rid of the entire tech stack. But that's not necessarily true.

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00:16:44:05 - 00:17:15:00

Dr. Megan Ma

Like I think that, you know, there are some places where older technologies going back to say, the expert systems, if you do want 100% accuracy, that's kind of the technology that you lean towards, because you'll always get the same response over and over again. But if you want kind of technology that is able to tap into almost like your inner conscience or your inner brain and processes and kind of strategy, especially role playing, all of this technology is now possible with generative AI.

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00:17:15:02 - 00:17:28:14

Dr. Megan Ma

And so again, like it's really about breaking down. What exactly is the broader problem, how you want to, create or assemble your new team of humans and machines together?

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00:17:28:17 - 00:17:45:19

Omar Haroun

I love it, and that's actually a great segue into augmented intelligence. And I would love to just hear, you know, it's it's do you think it's more of an art? More of a science? What what does it really mean to you? And and how do you see that kind of unfolding in the next two years?

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00:17:45:23 - 00:18:09:06

Dr. Megan Ma

Yeah, I think like multiple times that we've kind of chatted about this. I see augmented intelligence as a two way street or bidirectional. I think, you know, a lot of people just imagine, like AI as just contributing to the human and elevating them. But I think it's also the other side, too, right? The technology is capable of being increasingly better.

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00:18:09:12 - 00:18:32:15

Dr. Megan Ma

The more you kind of work with it. And so it's an era of this, like human computer interaction, human machine engagement, where you're finding ways to, you know, defer certain tasks to, the machines and certain tasks to humans. And it's a call and response. I don't know whether or not we will find that perfect science too, but it definitely is more of an art form.

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00:18:32:19 - 00:19:00:07

Dr. Megan Ma

One thing that we've been working on is a going back to kind of the hallucination is really this question of evaluation. And I think for the first time ever, the profession is coming with a reckoning where we are asked, like, you know, what actually do we offer as humans? And especially human lawyers? And we did this exercise where we asked actually partners to define a set of tasks that is an end to end workflow, say in litigation.

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00:19:00:09 - 00:19:25:18

Dr. Megan Ma

And we basically gave that tasks out two sets of associates, sets of foundation models and then sets of enterprise tools. And we then got those outputs and we sent them back to the partners in a blind manner. We have x like x number of exhibits. And we say there are three exhibits here. You don't know which is which one is human, one is enterprise and one is a foundation model or ILM.

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00:19:25:19 - 00:19:48:22

Dr. Megan Ma

Just rank what you prefer. And I think the results that will come out in our study are going to be quite surprising. I think there is a kind of natural tendency for us to believe that us as lawyers know best, but we're starting to realize that there are certain specific subtasks that the machines have outperformed us in for a long time.

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00:19:49:00 - 00:20:09:12

Dr. Megan Ma

And I think what's going to be even more exciting is what's the relative value game between an LLN and actually the enterprise tool. And so all the and comforts that, you know, have argued that we have a special sauce or we have something to show for, I think it will be surprising to them which tasks they really can market.

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00:20:09:18 - 00:20:13:10

Dr. Megan Ma

And what actually is the competition out there today.

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00:20:13:12 - 00:20:42:19

Omar Haroun

Fascinating. One of their kind of take and I'm really curious to get your perspective on is UX right. We, we all everyone's talking about AI right now. How that gets presented delivered obviously will will make a huge difference. So can you talk a little bit about what are some of the emerging trends maybe, that you're excited about and, and that the audience might, might, might also think about.

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00:20:42:22 - 00:21:07:18

Dr. Megan Ma

Yeah. I, I love this question because I think it's really nice that for the first time, the legal community is being asked, like, you know, what is your way of kind of viewing, not technology is just another tool, but almost like a way to kind of, again, do this type of augmented intelligence that you have hand in hand a second brain.

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00:21:07:20 - 00:21:41:18

Dr. Megan Ma

And is it from a platform perspective, or is it kind of meeting you where you're at? And I think the latter has been the approach that we've seen historically with legal tech. Everyone's like, we have to make this a Microsoft word plug in. But what we've experienced and from our own kind of prototyping, we noticed that you can't actually unlock the full potential of this technology if you continue to retrofit it with existing, you know, Microsoft tools or any of these existing kind of incumbent platforms.

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00:21:42:00 - 00:22:08:17

Dr. Megan Ma

But then it leaves the question, you know, is, is it that lawyers, you know, enjoy asking, you know, legal tech vendors? Can you kind of meet us where we're at and put it into Microsoft Word on Microsoft? 365 because it took us forever to get it to where we're at now that, you know, I had to shape shift everything I do to make my process work.

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00:22:08:17 - 00:22:42:18

Dr. Megan Ma

And so I just don't want to deal with that change management or, you know, is it that truly, you know, Microsoft is giving them a workflow that they desperately need? And I think, like until we can prove rightfully that there are other approaches, you're going to have lawyers conflate basically these two that I have to use this because it makes sense for my work versus like, I have to use it because I'm resistant to kind of a new learning curve.

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00:22:42:20 - 00:22:58:12

Omar Haroun

Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. I'm just curious kind of back on this UX point, have you seen much with Boies other sort of mediums? I mean, we talk a lot about text, but, as, as I just kind of curious.

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00:22:58:14 - 00:23:22:17

Dr. Megan Ma

Yeah. I haven't seen a ton, but, for us, we've been experimenting. So, for example, that negotiation simulator, we also have a version for depositions. We actually added a voice functionality to it so that you can, you know, if you are training a young lawyer how to negotiate. We made a smartphone capable, or compatible and so on the smartphone.

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00:23:22:17 - 00:23:49:12

Dr. Megan Ma

It's actually very annoying to be typing long paragraphs or doing all these different maneuvers. And so we made it such that you can just like argue with the agents on the phone. And that's been something that has been quite nice for, actually partners enjoy it. Oddly, this current generation, they just prefer text. And so they still use the kind of texting to play the negotiation games.

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00:23:49:18 - 00:24:13:23

Dr. Megan Ma

What's interesting is that actually the voice functionality pushes them to learn how to capture, like speech, nuance versus textual nuance. And I think that those are a little bit different. You know, I have partners tell me that, yeah, they're associates. They just slack them or like, teams them and they wouldn't even knock on their door even though they're next door.

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00:24:14:01 - 00:24:26:00

Dr. Megan Ma

And I think tools like what we're offering and using voice mode actually encourages this current generation to be much more approachable and social when it comes to doing their work.

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00:24:26:03 - 00:24:36:14

Omar Haroun

Wow. Fascinating. You've talked a little bit in the past about how legal education is changing and evolving. Can you talk a bit about that?

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00:24:36:16 - 00:25:07:10

Dr. Megan Ma

Yeah, I think, well, it's academia is one of those things that if you think the legal industry on the private side is resistant to change, will academia is like deep in the in the perspective of not wanting to change. I think like currently a lot of what we're starting to see is classes that are generally introducing the role of technology in law.

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00:25:07:12 - 00:25:42:12

Dr. Megan Ma

But what we're secretly kind of doing here is, say, the negotiation workshop that you see, or kind of the trial advocacy. We've been trying to figure out ways to deploy our technology in that class. So the class naturally has role playing elements to it. And so rather than kind of preparing for the big kind of, negotiation where you do it with your peers, you can kind of have these stepwise improvements that you do on your own, and you can offer it as like homework assignments or sort of instead of readings.

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00:25:42:17 - 00:26:08:00

Dr. Megan Ma

I want you to play 4 or 5 games of this particular tool. And I think that's kind of the slow and steady way that we're trying to find. In terms of improving on, their own types of skills, I think with legal education, what people are going to realize is, unlike other jurisdictions, I'm from Canada. So, you know, there's an apprenticeship program that's built in.

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00:26:08:00 - 00:26:45:18

Dr. Megan Ma

So like a traineeship, it's a year, you get paid pennies, but at least get to shadow, an experienced lawyer in the US kind of world, like, it's just a baptism by fire. You graduate from law school, you write the bar, then you're thrown into a law firm. And I think without this kind of training year where you're encouraged to fail and fail fast, but then learn from it, you actually kind of instill a culture of fear in a lot of the junior associate, and especially if you're continuously taking away, like, the tools that you've historically said were going to be useful.

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00:26:45:18 - 00:27:13:23

Dr. Megan Ma

So clients, for example, requesting that they don't want associates on the case because they don't want to, you know, have your associate like, be trained on their own client matter. That's kind of like creating a problem with young associates, kind of picking up on that legal nuance. In you know, the litigation space, you know, if you're in a contingency fee model, we're starting to see partners saying like, well, we don't get paid if we don't win.

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00:27:13:23 - 00:27:38:03

Dr. Megan Ma

So I'm not going to have my associate on this case. They can just observe from afar. So observing is not really learning in any way. And so we're really trying to figure out if you're bridging this gap that's going to be exponentially larger. How do you actually kind of culture in into the law school itself. Technology using generative AI to find ways to, pick up on these practical skills.

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00:27:38:05 - 00:28:01:12

Dr. Megan Ma

The other thing that I started to notice is notebook LLM was really popular. It had a viral moment of being able to generate these podcasts. It was kind of fascinating because in the beginning there's so much resistance from professors. And then later on hearing fictional agents tell them about how amazing their work is apparent can sell very well.

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00:28:01:14 - 00:28:12:13

Dr. Megan Ma

Turns out that like papers from like, 30 years ago suddenly have a renewed excitement. So I think that, for example, at Stanford, we started to think about using notebook LLM for our students.

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00:28:12:15 - 00:28:34:20

Omar Haroun

That's amazing. Never underestimate the power of flattery as a person. Everybody, who's who's paying attention to legal technology knows Codex and now increasingly knows you. Megan. I think one thing that'd be great is to hear a little bit more about your own story, how you got to where you are. Any any things about you that may not be, you know, obvious as someone just reads a bio about you?

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00:28:34:22 - 00:29:01:23

Dr. Megan Ma

Yeah, sure. So, I actually had one of the